Stop Lights / Bike Wars

topic posted Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:44 AM by  Unsubscribed
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First off, let me just say that I drive my car maybe like once every few weeks, and then only when it's impractical to walk, bike, or take public transit, so let's just get that straight. But it seems like every time I do, I almost hit some jackass bicyclist who is running a red light. Frankly, it makes me very nervous. And somewhat angry. Not enough to get out and assault said jackasses (they usually travel in pairs, I notice), but enough that I become just ever so sympathetic to those who do.

So please tell your friends: if I don't see them because I'm generally not expecting somebody to jet out in front of my car, and I happen to run over or into them, or them into me (it happens), it's kind of tough shit. Game over. Sayonnara. And nobody's going to rename a bike box in their honor, or write a letter to editor defending their actions, or throw a benefit concert to cover their hospital and/or funeral costs. Maybe they will on that last one, actually, but I'm not coming. They just blew it, and that's that.

So please, for the love of all that is good, STOP AT STOPLIGHTS. Car do it *almost* every time. And bikes should too. It's a chance to practice that retarded track stand that you have to be able to do to not be a total poser on your fixie. Look at it that way. Sure, roll a stop sign when you're absolutely sure that nobody's coming. We all do it. But look both ways first. Twice, if cross-traffic doesn't have to stop. Thank you for your time, and spread the word.
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  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:32 AM
    May I add, please use the bike routes streets instead of the crowded streets like Hawthorne and Burnside.
    There are streets with biking lanes a block away, you will get to there even faster most likely. Riding on the busy crowded streets just slows everyone down and really does increase the chances of me or some driver hitting you.
    Spread the word.

    I don't want to hit you, as I like my car.

    www.portlandonline.com/TRANSP...dex.cfm




    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:35 AM
      as humans, we seem to have issues with exceptions to rules, or should I say.."as Americans" we have this struggle.

      I've caught myself lsipping thru a red light or a stop sign on occasion, but in light of all the fury and accidents lately, I know fully respect the rules of the road.

      It makes me kinda frustrated when I see cyclists riding without helmets..especially riding on Division, Hawthorne and even Powell! Morons! Just asking for a death wish or paralyzation.


      WAKE UP PEOPLE and take care of one another, but start with yourself!
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:25 PM
        even helmets won't prevent a broken neck, sliding under a truck, splattering someone's grill, or even simple injury that will make biking to work/whereabouts impossible. i used to be a bad cyclist.

        i think it's okay to sluff a 4-way stop on a deserted side-street (slow roll through) or hitting a yellow on the tail-end, but in light of everything, i'd rather not chance having my parents feed my lame-ass through a tube because i'm too fuckin dumb to protect myself.

        the problem i'm having with all this angsty us-them-us stuff is that a lot of it is because people are dumb and others seem to take it upon themselves to be moralist-rule-sticklers. i see a stupid biker, i shake my head to myself and keep going (on bike or in my truck), i don't feel the need to lambast the dumbshits. i'm with the poster: do your thing, but you're legally a vehicle once you hit the streets, so it's up to you how you want to get to your destination (intended or otherwise).

        on the last biker-thread back when that unfortunate soul died on interstate, i mentioned my only recourse to someone who might hit me: big fat effin nautical airhorn. loud as hell. i NEVER use it, unless it's the 4th of July, New Years, etc. it's there for that blind driver who hasn't figured out that there's a bike next to them.

        I'm all for equal-rights, just it seems so many of us cyclists are hell-bent on blocking lanes, riding way too far to the left, etc. I like to stop about 20 feet back from an intersection on the curb to let the cars make their turns, and not be some fat-ass standing there in the middle of the road. We need more thoroughfares like Springwater and East Side Espalande. Where's iminent domain when we really need it? build some over/under-passes, and anything else to make the trip easier, safer and faster. s'all
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:06 PM
      Oh man that is so true. Ever been on a busy rush hour highway that comes to a screeching halt, only to find out 2 hrs later some dumbshit is riding thier bike on the highway because the shoulder is too scary? Gawd!
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Tue, August 19, 2008 - 3:26 AM
      elaine- with very limited exceptions bikes are allowed on every street in Portland. They have the right to take the lane when they have to. Their reasons may not be easily visible to you- i.e. glass on the road someone getting ready to get out of their car in a parking space. You need to give them the space they are allowed by law- Hawthorne is not a freeway.

      And bicyclists are indeed required to stop at stop lights and signs.

      Seems like the whole of Portland could use a ODL brush up.
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Tue, August 19, 2008 - 6:28 PM
        Duncan,Yes, indeed, I DO know bicyclists are allowed on the streets of Portland. I took my driving test a little over a year ago and scored a 95 out of a 100 on written and driven, so the rules and regulations are still quite fresh in my mind. I take my driving, especially as I started at a later age than most, very seriously and therefore try to know the rules of the road.
        So thanks for the suggestion on brushing up on my ODL, but I got that all covered, Duncan, duly noted.
        I also know there are bike lanes on certain streets that make riding a bike much easier and safer for everyone involved. Yes, you are legally allowed to ride down Hawthorne, but realistically you are making it a great deal more dangerous for yourself and others when you do. Especially on the narrower parts of Hawthorne. Same goes for parts of Burnside and Belmont and a lot of other heavily travelled streets around here.

        When there are less traveled streets paralleling the heavier traveled have bike lanes, and those bikes lanes get the bicyclist to their destination in a safer, quick and timely manner - seems like no brainer to me. Less traffic on the busy streets, less potential confrontation between car and bike and less chance for collisions between car and bike.

        But if you feel all entitled to ride down Hawthorne anyway even knowing you have a less stressful and more cooperative being bike lane a street away.. go right ahead.
        Hawthorne is not a free way after all.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:11 AM
          Elaine,
          I am glad you did so well on your Drivers test... The reference was for EVERYONE.

          I am glad to know that you realize that I have a right to be there- sweet.
          I know that I have a responsibility to ride as far to the right as practicable. So passing isnt a problem.
          If I am in the middle of the lane there is a reason you can't pass me- trust me, it is my life after all not yours. I will give you your 3 feet if I can.

          I also know that I have a responsibility to ride in a predictable manner- no un-signaled lane changes, hopping on and off the sidewalk, riding the wrong way down a one way street, blowing stop signs. I wish the people would do that would stop because it makes biking harder for the rest of us. I slow up to a stop and the car that has the right of way slams on the brakes because he assumes I will blow the stop rattles everyones day.

          As for Hawthorne I don;t generally ride it much uphill- and downhill I can keep up with traffic. But you know what- I do not know every freaking bike street in the city and I use my bike as regular transportation, while you may rarely sea me humping up Hawthorne (although sometimes you will) you will see me on 57th, MLK, Willamette (love that bike lane), Freemont, 23rd (Sushiville bike ride!). Sometimes I get lost and following a main street is the easiest way, sometimes I am just going about my daily business and I dont want to spend an hour figuring out how to stay out of YOUR way. While I am sure that some bicyclists are out there to fuck with you- do not automatically assume it. and be thankful for each of us- because each bike means one less car blocking your way. It isn't hard Elaine, I drive a car in the same city (and even the same parts of town) as you and I manage to get my shit done without getting steamed or endangering anyone. I would be more than happy to take the bike roads every where but they don't go everywhere, they aren't perfect.

          So slow down, be cool. If the bikers an asshat that their issue not yours. just pass when you can and know your the better person.

          My pet peeves for cars-
          cutting into bike lanes on corners
          the right hook
          cell phones
          doorings
          speeders on back streets
          menacing (tri met loves to do that)
          shitty parkers (want me over farther- dont park in my freaking lane!)
          I think UPS wants me dead.
          people who do 2x the speed limit
          drunks
          tweekers
          cops who cant park

          I feel better now
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 12:44 PM
    It happens a lot. The arrogance of youth and a feeling of moral superiority don't count for much in inelastic collisions with a ton of iron at 35 mph.

    Other pet bike peeves...

    Riding the wrong way on streets
    Making a left from the bike lane, across the right lane and across the middle lane
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 3:02 PM
      I too ride a lot and am a vocal bike advocate but *every friggin' day* I drive to work I witness another bike blow through a stop sign or red light.
      It's not an entitlement, kids! And if you assault me when I make the effort to correct you I _will_ Taze you.
  • soapbox like thing

    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 1:32 PM
    I would be happiest if all members of this tribe lived to a productive, happy old age.

    Please everybody be safe and careful and look extra hard for potential issues.

    Back when I was a wee tyke, I grumped about how I had the right of way because I had a bicycle. My stepdad nodded sagely and said "Well, you might be right, but you don't want to be DEAD right. It's just not that important, guy." he was (and still is) absolutely right.

    All those extra head-turnings and all those extra check-all-lanes and all the extra caution in the world you apply won't increase your comute time more than, say, forty-five seconds.

    So drivers, bicyclists, pedestrians, and crazy people -- please take care of yourselves, and watch out for others, too. be your own eyes and if you can help, be someone else's eyes, too (they might not SEE the stop sign they're supposed to obey).

    It hurts no one to be vigilant, and we all get to stay alive, unparalyzed, and not miss the last season of BSG.
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 2:44 PM
    I'm right there with you. I don't bike in portland, mostly because I'm without an operable bike at the moment, but I'm predominantly a pedestrian with three exceptions (driving to my job in Tigard, driving to my garden plot in a remote part of forest park, and the odd trip to Food Front). While most cyclists in Portland are respectful, if a little reckless with their lack of helmets, enough have turned me completely against the aggressive bike punks. Three incidents really did it for me and I tend to yell at them now. The midwestern boy in my wants to be quiet and not say anything negative, but it's really gotten too much for me these day. I felt better after reading an article in the Oregonian that several recent bike punk assaults were committed against bicycyle advocates asking them to wear helmets and obey stop signs. Perhaps if more of us start to publicy shame them we'll see a change in behavior.

    Okay, I'm sure we all have similar stories to bitch about...and forgive me for going off...but I just have to share my own horror stories to an understanding crowd.

    1. Last month I was crossing at a crosswalk on an empty street and a cyclist blew right through my group of fellow pedestrians. As he approached I made eye contact and confirmed he saw us, yet he forced us to jump out of his way even though he had more than enough room to go around and no traffic to worry about.

    2. One guy here in NW Portland likes to blow through stopsigns at a very high rate of speed and give the finger to cars having to slam on their breaks. I've seen it happen often enough that I know he's being provocational. Damn I would love to hit him one of these days...fortunately my sense of decency overpowers my baser insticts....for now.

    3. Last year I witnessed a guy blow through a stopsign that forced a retired woman to slam on her breaks as she pulled across the intersection at low speed. The poor woman was absolutely horrified and apologized out her window, yet the cyclist kicked her grill and hood repeatedly while cursing her with all sorts of bad words, even though it was totally his fault. Then he rode down 21st swerving back and forth in both lanes of traffic in a game of chicken. I was THIS close to following the guy and calling the cops.

    For now I drive through portland at low speeds to save gas and avoid pedestrians. But if you willfully violate traffic laws and your bike impacts my car, I'm not going to cry at your injury/death/loss of your bike.
  • jOe
    jOe
    offline 1

    Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 6:12 PM
    We are all at different stages of development. No mode of transportation is superior to any other. My need to get where I am going trumps everyone elses. When I fuck up,its a mistake: When you fuck up its a major character flaw. ( asshole!)

    Pardon my soapboxing. I dont have the answers. I just know that sticking the birdie up every time someone offends me solves nothing.
    I notice a lot of folks coming and going daily, and am often surprised how courteous and kind they are. Perhaps the bike/car war is not of their making,but that of KPTVs and the Oregonians??

    Relax, take a deep breath. Show a litle kindness and somehow it will all work out.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Fri, August 1, 2008 - 10:32 AM
      "No mode of transportation is superior to any other."

      Well, I'd vote for the mode that gets you to your destination safely with minimal impact on the folks around you to be a good candidate.

      Sometimes that's a bike, sometimes a car, sometimes a plane, sometimes a slug-drawn carriage.

      "I notice a lot of folks coming and going daily, and am often surprised how courteous and kind they are."

      Same here. I try to keep that going, remembering that a smile and a wave can go a long way.

      "Relax, take a deep breath. Show a litle kindness and somehow it will all work out."

      Fantastic advice! 8)
  • ?
    ?
    offline 58

    Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 8:15 PM
    We need to stop assuming that bicyclists know the rules of the road and instead have them earn a license. This way they can help pay for the bike paths. I have witnessed too many people on bikes who ride with no rules and even expect to be treated like both a pedestrian and a vehicle in the road by motorists.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Fri, August 1, 2008 - 10:29 AM
      "We need to stop assuming that bicyclists know the rules of the road and instead have them earn a license."

      I can assure you that earning or even possessing a license is no guarantee that a person knows the rules of the road, or even operates their vehicle with any more safety than, say, a Chernobyl Technician.

      I advocate assuming NO ONE knows the rules of the road, including oneself, and that the best course of action is to review driver guides regularly, and to pay very close attention to what's going on around you when actually on the road.

      Regardless of your vehicle of choice.

      Taking care, being cautious, and being aware costs NOTHING.

      I've yet to hear of an accident where the police shook their heads and said "Well, the problem was, everyone involved was just too aware and too careful."
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Fri, August 1, 2008 - 9:10 AM
    I'm a respectful bicyclist, but since the Oregonian's hate articles on bikes the amount of harassment I've received while riding has dramatically increased. People barking at me, throwing things at me, driving recklessly close to me while I'm on the right side of the lane. As I was pulling into my driveway last week one car drove by and yelled, "Get a car, bitch!" Then there are the numerous people honking at me. Why? Once I was making a left turn at 8th and Alberta. Several blocks away I moved from the right side of the lane to the center so I could make the turn. As I turned a car that had pulled up behind me yelled, "Your ass is as big as a car!" Almost all the near accidents I've had have been because some car driver was trying to make a right turn through a bike lane without looking, or because they're pulling out into the street without looking. Many of my friends complain about these same problems. The only person I know who has been hit by a car was hit by a drunk driver, a drunk driver who also happened to smash his car into several others cars on his July 4th rampage.

    As a bicyclist I've rarely seen other cyclists run stop signs or red lights. I know of one bicyclist who does do this regularly, and I've told him how crazy I think he is. Ironically, he is a huge helmet advocate (I'm not). Can you imagine what he'd be like in a car?
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Fri, August 1, 2008 - 10:08 AM
      "People barking at me, throwing things at me, driving recklessly close to me while I'm on the right side of the lane."

      Sadly, some folks are ill-mannered, and it reflects poorly on their Acme Mothering Units®.

      Best to ignore 'em. Pull over and let them carry their poison further down the road. If you feel as if they have truly behaved recklessly, a quick call to the police might be in order.

      Doesn't matter WHAT vehicle they're using.

      I'm glad to hear you take your vehicle and commuting seriously and respectfully. Happy thanks!
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Fri, August 1, 2008 - 9:17 PM
        What upsets me is that I had very few problems with cars until after the Oregonian articles. It seems to me as if people feel that's its ok to hate on bicyclists because the Oregonian has given the ok to do so.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Fri, August 1, 2008 - 11:09 PM
          Interesting. I guess I have to disagree with the " No helmet' people. I like every advantage I can get when its me against machine, ground, tree, my own clumsiness, the devil, a blown tire ectera..
          Any layer of something between my awesome brain and being a vegetable for the rest of my life is A-Ok with me.

          But, that's me.

          Thanks for the input , kids.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Fri, August 1, 2008 - 11:16 PM
          totally agree. it seems like some of our trashier elements' patriotism has been challenged by our lessened reliance on $4+/gal. but i might be assuming the nature of their motives. assholes are assholes, regardless of their mode of transportation, and they tend to get easily offended. the media has a vested interest in controversy, so i think the best thing to do is forget that noise and be the best representative of responsibility you can be.
          • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

            Sun, August 3, 2008 - 1:20 PM
            "...i think the best thing to do is forget that noise and be the best representative of responsibility you can be."

            I agree. Be smart, be courteous, and watch out for others, as well as yourself. Be aware of and safely follow the rules of the road. Arrive at your destination in one piece.

            No matter what form of transportation you use.

            It's really not any more complicated than that.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Fri, August 1, 2008 - 12:56 PM
      Why would anyone NOT wear a helmet on a bike, Brandon? Not to start a fight or attack you, I just don't understand why someone wouldn't want to protect their noggin as much as possible.

      Please enlighten me, I am curious.
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Fri, August 1, 2008 - 1:53 PM
        Having been a motorcycle/bicycle/convertible rider/driver (and still riding bicycles...) I can honestly say that there is a certain joy in "having the wind blow through my hair." It is so freeing to take the top and doors off a Jeep and drive around with nothing but a tub and a roll cage between you and the rest of the world. maybe its an asthetics thing: I think I look like a complete dork with a helmet on. I know I should wear one. I know that I'll look a hell of a lot better wearing one in an accident than not. But there is just a wonderful feeling of being out free. I would assume that horse riders have the same feeling. You are on an animal that can sprint at 30MPH; you ought to be wearing safety gear. Skateboarding is the same way. Maybe it is a confidence issue. I feel utterly confident that I can negotiate my bike around the city. Therefore, why should I wear a helmet? It's really tough to explain other than I know I should but I don't.

        However, as Lance Murdoch, daredevil from the Simpson's says: Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Fri, August 1, 2008 - 5:08 PM
          If I get into an accident in my car, I have seat belts, air bags and insurance to help with any injuries I might receive. If I hit a grate or pothole while on my bike, all I have to look forward to, is flying over the handlebars and kissing the asphalt (we've all done that).
          So I want as much protective gear that I can comfortably wear while riding.
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:28 PM
        Elaine, I have an 'off' gene. One of the clerks in my office says it's the risk=taker gene. She's probably right. I honestly don't worry about the worst case scenario. I just jump or hit the gas or whatever.

        The helmet I wear when I ride my Harley is a little skull cap. It's not DOT legal or safety approved. I do it because I always push the envelope if given a choice.

        If others ride horses over fences, I do it bareack. Just one of those things. I'm not uptight or cautious.
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:03 PM
    Oh man, I feel this one. People rip and gnash over bicycle rights and damn cars and their gas hog ways, etc., but I work downtown, and let me tell you.... Bicyclists there are dumbfucks! And rude!

    The PSU crowd half the time seems to be on some hookah high because they travel in slow moving groups and never look left, right, back, or forward. They look down or away or at each other. Move!!!!

    My most common bete noir is the jaunty bicycle speeder. You know, the ladies and gentlemen who ride up and down hills and busy as hell roads far faster than traffic, showing their fitness and joie de vivre. You may be sitting at a slow intersection for a while, waiting for the light to turn green, and suddenly Trong the emo or Bart the junior financial analyst on the way to meet his organized ride from the bike shop are suddenly on you and almost driving into you as you make that left or right turn. The fact that they sped up right along side your blind side with no warning and ripped by when you were obviously turning is just a reminder that you should have paid attention. Gawd.

    I'm all for bikes. But bikes are getting as bad as the damned pedestrians around downtown Portland. And that's saying something....
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Mon, August 4, 2008 - 6:52 AM
    Y'know as I was going thru this thread, I felt the bile rise up in the back of my throat and I was all fired up and ready to start bitching about asshole bicyclists, cocksucking car drivers, and nincompoop pedestrians.

    And then it dawned on me: everyone is an asshole, depending on their context.

    True, there are guys out there who are cutting huge swaths of traffic anarchy out there is if their Schwinns are pedal powered chainsaws.

    There are motorists out there who wouldn't know a turn signal from a cup holder, and feel that the only way of staying alert whilst driving is to have a blaring radio, a cellphone affixed to their ear, and a passel of screaming children in the back watching Spongebob on a DVD player.

    And then there's the street-rat who after a day's "spanging" feels that his day isn't complete unless he's bruised a few shoulders while edging his way past everyone on the sidewalk.

    But sure there are thoughtless and careless things you've done whilst in transit that may not have occurred to you until well after the fact.

    It could be as simple as "Sorry, I was looking forward to 'Charles In Charge' coming out on DVD and I completely spaced out that stop sign" to as heavy as "Maybe I should've called a cab after having 14 NyQuil margueritas."

    I'm just as guilty of the same, as anyone who I've excoriated after walking home from work could probably attest to.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Mon, August 4, 2008 - 12:24 PM
      "And then it dawned on me: everyone is an asshole, depending on their context."

      That may be.

      I think if people REALLY believed that, they'd be less likely to scream at other people. They'd be thinking "Man, that person sure was an asshat -- but they might also be a dangerous loco, so I better just keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and if they look at me, wave and smile."

      Which, from a functional standpoint, might be accurate.
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Mon, August 4, 2008 - 6:25 PM
        That's a pretty good policy actually. It's close to the one I follow.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Mon, August 4, 2008 - 6:46 PM
          In spite of my irritation, I always smile and wave and let others go first because it serves me and gives back in a small way. Yes I don't like the irritating full of themselves ones who are clueless and seem to get enjoyment out of being a pain in the ass, but I still let it go at the time.

          Yet I complain about it here. LOL
          • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

            Tue, August 19, 2008 - 3:40 AM
            As a biker, cyclist, driver. pedestrian, I assume no one sees anything, that every car is going to blow the stop sign, suddenly turn right without signaling, every pedestrian is going to dart our from between parked cars and every kid walking down the sidewalk is going to suddenly want that shiny dime in the middle of the road.

            Thats how I roll. I am responsible for my own actions... I may bitch when it happens but I am rarely surprised...
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Wed, August 20, 2008 - 1:23 PM
    in a car, or on a bike....be alert.

    just because someone on a bike wants to tempt fate, to save a few minutes and run a stoplight....don't drag someone else into it by possibly catching them off guard, then having them kill you. now you're dead, and that driver has to live with the sadness for a long time.

    our freedoms end at arm's length.

    off my soapbox now.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Wed, August 20, 2008 - 2:08 PM
      and drivers just because you are in a hurry dont run that yellow and whack some law abiding cyclist.

      And everyone get off your damn cell phones!
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Wed, August 20, 2008 - 2:53 PM
        "and drivers just because you are in a hurry dont run that yellow and whack some law abiding cyclist"

        Under what circumstances would an automobile under a yellow light strike a legally operating bicycle?
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Wed, August 20, 2008 - 3:29 PM
          I believe the point here is that many cars attempting to run yellows misjudge and end up running reds. Granted, the likelihood of a bicyclist getting into the intersection during that brief time is quite small, especially considering that there's usually (although not always) a delay between the time when one light turns red and the other turns green, but it is theoretically possible.

          I've seen people *greatly* misjudge their ability to get through a light on the yellow.
          • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

            Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:01 PM
            Ah. Well, yes, if Duncan meant "red", then yes, I'd concur.

            Ideally, everyone would follow the law, no matter how many wheels they were responsible for, and the only problems would be when the Rapture hits and all those abandoned cars skid around and hit unbaptized children and kill them dead and send them to hell.

            In a more practical sense, it seems best to encourage EVERYONE to take great care to follow the laws, and to watch out for others who might not be. Sometimes that will be people on bikes. Sometimes that will be people in cars.

            It costs nothing more than another second to doublecheck intersections, to look around, and to be a little extra-aware of one's surroundings. Whether one is on a bike, a car, or a flying submarine.

            It's got to be better than pointing fingers, blaming other people for being stupid, foolhardy, ignorant, or whatever, 'cause that shit does no good vis-a-vis solving the problem.
            • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

              Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:09 PM
              "Ah. Well, yes, if Duncan meant "red", then yes, I'd concur."

              Duncan, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he *did* mean yellow. Very few people who run reds intend to run reds or think they will run a red. Saying "don't run that red light" is useless, because everyone thinks, "I don't run red lights. This statement does not apply to me." Saying "don't run that yellow light," meaning "don't run that yellow light because you may end up misjudging and running a red light," is a statement directed toward the intended audience. The implied "because" part seemed quite obvious to me.
              • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

                Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:14 PM
                I would support people being more aware of their surroundings to know what yellow lights mean, and to know the difference between a yellow and a red light.

                I would also support people approaching newly-green intersections with the thought in mind that someone might not be paying attention or be misjudging the light.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:15 PM
          when the driver sees the yellow from 300 feet back and guns it

          when the driver follows three others after the left hand turn signal turns yellow and cuts across a busy intersection. Last time I was biking on Hawthorne a woman almost hit a blind pedestrian because she had waited for the walk alert. There is a one and a half second lag between thinking and reacting if you speed up to say 30 to make a light and the light changes by the time you see it and hit the break you will have traveled 60 odd feet, at 30 MPH you will easily travel another 30 or 40 feet IF the road isnt wet IF your breaks are good IF you are paying close attention.

          The difference is the lag between perception and reality. Our perception lags behind reality, and it isn't our perception of the yellow that strikes the biker, it is the reality of our car.

          I drive... and bike alot. I am also a watcher of actions and safety (its my job) and lots of people in this town are driving on autopilot. Yellow means slow down and prepare to stop- not keep going, not accelerate. The rule is Safe and Prudent. Is it safe or prudent to accelerate into a yellow? To go through an "orange" light because the guy in front of you did? That is what I am talking about, and it happens every time i go out for a ride. The thing is like I said the reason it hasn't killed me is because I don't expect anyone to be paying attention.
  • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

    Wed, August 20, 2008 - 5:50 PM
    this is very simple, not right, but simple...
    i'm walking thru the jungle where i know tigers roam. if i don't want be ripped apart and eaten by a tiger, i best keep eyes open and be cautious.

    car vs biker rider? bike rider will often lose in a crash, get hurt or killed.

    when i ride my bike, i don't trust car drivers. i pretend they're all on cell phones, they're all eating mcdonald's fries ( supersized), that they're are all rushing to walmart (to save a couple bucks on some piece of crap made in china), and that they sure as shit don't care about me.

    sorry to be so cynical, but i've never been hit by a car while riding a bike. shitty way to live, but so far it has worked for me.

    my dad was a master keeper at the san diego zoo for 15 yrs taking care of the chimps, lowland & mountain gorillas, and the orangutans. he always told me, "mike, don't tease the animals!"

    words to live by.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Wed, August 20, 2008 - 6:19 PM

      my dad was a master keeper at the san diego zoo for 15 yrs taking care of the chimps, lowland & mountain gorillas, and the orangutans. he always told me, "mike, don't tease the animals!"<<<

      OMG MONKEYS!!
      • Re: OMG MONKEYS

        Thu, August 21, 2008 - 10:15 AM
        you would be in awe from what you can learn form animals.
        btw...gorillas, chimps, and orangs are not monkeys, but apes. apes don't have tails, and are higher up the ladder of evolution. smarter too.

        my dad used what he knew about to raise me, and i turned out ok. i do love tire swings!!!
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Wed, August 20, 2008 - 8:11 PM
      "words to live by"

      word. yesterday a truck lunged at me when i crossed the street in front of his stopped truck (backed up from the red light and rush hour stuff). he leaned out the window and told me what i did was bullshit, absolute fucking bullshit. sure, it bothered me a little, that a big bubba truck would posture just to make a point (i was crossing directly across from my vehicle) that what i was doing wasn't koser.

      in the old days i might have taunted with a smirk, or give him a look like "do something, foo" but the smarter (not "street" smart...obviously) me just kept walking and passed it off as his problem not mine.

      all those probs/conflicts b/w bikes and cars and both with peds, are just probs b/w people. the mode of transportation is beside the point. i know what i did was wrong, but it wasn't a fucking sin for sure. not something some social barney fife should lambast and threaten over me with a 1-ton chevy. it could have been a yuppie in a bmw, a hippy in a bug, or a biker.
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Wed, August 20, 2008 - 11:56 PM
        "he leaned out the window and told me what i did was bullshit, absolute fucking bullshit."

        Not everybody can have parents that were unrelated before marriage. Best you can do is move on.

        If they can hear you, a heartfelt "sorry" is okay.

        In your head you can add "...about your chromosomal flaws."
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Thu, August 21, 2008 - 12:35 PM
        Matt, there's always the "sorry" and a wave, especially if you know you were in the wrong. Even if you don't mean it.

        And driving a truck doesn't make you a "social Barney Fife." It makes you someone who is popular when your friends need to move.
        • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

          Thu, August 21, 2008 - 1:22 PM
          "And driving a truck doesn't make you a "social Barney Fife." It makes you someone who is popular when your friends need to move."

          As the owner of a 4runner and a trailer I second that.

          yes I bike and drive an SUV. sorry for not fitting neatly into a stereotype...
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Wed, August 20, 2008 - 11:54 PM
      "when i ride my bike, i don't trust car drivers."

      Yes.

      Also, when I drive my car, I don't trust bicyclists.

      Nobody gets a "trust" except airline pilots, and I can't afford to second guess THEM.

      Everybody else, however, no matter how many wheels they have, is potentially a lawsuit looking for a pair of deep pockets.

      So I try to watch out for EVERYBODY, no matter WHAT I'm riding.

      I recommend the same action.
    • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

      Thu, August 21, 2008 - 8:45 AM
      >>>when i ride my bike, i don't trust car drivers. i pretend they're all on cell phones, they're all eating mcdonald's fries (supersized), that they're are all rushing to walmart (to save a couple bucks on some piece of crap made in china), and that they sure as shit don't care about me.<<<

      When I ride I always try and go by the invisibility rule: pretend no one can see you (because many don't and will look right past you), so be alert and aware at all times.
      • Re: Stop Lights / Bike Wars

        Thu, August 21, 2008 - 10:18 AM
        ain't it the truth?!? sometimes bike, motorcyles are invisible. i have looked right thru them, honestly. they don't always register on my "radar"
        i tyr to think i pay attention, but i think we all blank out, check out, zone out for bits at a time.

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